Jordan Wolf hasn’t had many issues getting past opposing defensemen in his successful career, spanning from high school at Lower Merion (Pa.) to Duke to the Premier Lacrosse League. His speed and agility have made him one of the top attackmen in the last decade of men’s lacrosse.

However, Wolf, like many professional athletes, has a list of sturdy defensemen who he remembers well — the types of physical specimen who left Wolf sore, or worse, after games.

Wolf appeared on Season 4, Episode 9 of the “Overtime” podcast with Paul Carcaterra to talk about his lacrosse career. He was asked about his toughest matchup and tried the “cliché” answer, citing “a lot of guys,” but Carcaterra pressed on.

“Give me just one,” he said.

It took a fraction of a second for Wolf to namedrop his fellow U.S. national team member Tucker Durkin. The two had matched up in the Philadelphia suburbs since they were in middle school, when Wolf’s Abington Lacrosse Club battled Durkin’s Ashbee Lacrosse Club.

Over the course of nearly 15 years, Durkin has blossomed into one of the top defensemen in the history of the game and left attackmen like Wolf hurting.

“He’s actually knocked me out twice,” Wolf told Carcaterra. “Once in seventh grade when I was riding him on the sideline.”

Wolf and Durkin played together in the summer club season, where they’d match up during practices. Although the two Philly products never met during their college careers, where each was an All-American, they’d go toe-to-toe in both the MLL and PLL. They also competed against each other in the tryout process for the 2018 U.S. national team — a team they’d both make and continue on to win gold in Netanya, Israel.

With years of experience going up against Durkin, Wolf had an in-depth breakdown of his counterpart.

“He’s so mean and so fast,” Wolf said. “He’s one of those guys where you can get a step, but he’s athletic enough and strong enough to get low enough to meet you at that inflection point. He’ll push you out. He’s got the same personality type where he’s just out for blood.”

Every time Wolf faced Durkin, he knew he’d been in for an extensive recovery process.

“Every time you go up against Tucker, you know you’re going to get beat up,” he said. “It’s fun going against him, but obviously it’s not fun after you go against him.”